More to the Blues interview with ERIC CLAPTON
about his new record Me and Mr. Johnson in stores 3/30
Interview date: February 6, 2004

 
FUGEE Hi, ERIC.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Hi.
 
FUGEE And thank you for spending some time with us today. I guess we should start at the very beginning, which is when you first became aware of Robert Johnson, how he affected you and, um, you know, how he came into your orbit, so to speak?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, I, I think, um, my earliest recollection of, of, of hearing Robert Johnson was, um, around the time I was 15 or 16 years old. And I was in arts school, um, in Kingston and, and I had run into a group, a small group of guys who liked Blues and R&B and Folk music. And, and there was, um, a few people playing around, in the coffee bars and such like, and by then, I'd already, um, developed, uh, an appetite for Folk Blues.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I, I liked, uh, Big Bill Broonzy and, uh, and I had seen Josh White play in London and, and I had seen a couple of other people on TV, um, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee, had the, kind, almost like a big hit single, way back when I was really young. Um, and so I'd been exposed to it and I was becoming interested in it and I had heard, um, a few people. And, and someone had this album, King Of The Delta Blues, and I forget who it was now but it was one of, one of the, one of this little circle of, um, blue aficionados.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I was playing, too, by that time. I was just starting to learn how to play, uh, finger style acoustic, you know? And little bits of, of, of, of Broonzy and, and, uh, and some other standards, like Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out, things like that. And, and this person who had the album lent it to me and, and I think, actually, we listened to it together, first of all. And I found it incredibly difficult to listen to. Uh, uh, and I also found Blind Lemon Jefferson very difficult to listen to, as well.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I think it was because I had been, um, introduced to, to Blues in a much more commercial way. I had, I mean, (STAMMERS) for instance, Big Bill Broonzy, who was very big in Europe, um, had learned how to really, um, cultivate his music to appeal to a wider market. You know, he really, he was touring, um, all over and playing to White audiences and, and I, and I'd figured out how to make it acceptable, or just to make it simpler, in some respects so that it was easier, more accessible.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And Robert Johnson had none of that because of what he did was so long ago and, and it was, in a way, what I loved about it, I think, was that it, it was almost like purely for himself. Now, maybe that isn't the case but I got the impression, first time I heard it, that I was listening in on a very private conversation of some kind. And, um, and it, it kind of, uh, it turned me off. Um, uh, uh, first, and then I found I had to keep going back to it.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, each time I went back to it, um, I liked it more and more, until it became the only thing I could listen to, for quite a long time. It was, um, it was the sort of cornerstone of my, of, of my musical, my mental music archive, if you like. Uh, and so everything else had to relate to that and I would always come back to that.
 
FUGEE It took you time, actually, to be ready to listen to Robert Johnson, didn't it?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, I had listened to, uh, uh, I think, first of all, in a (STAMMERS), the first things I heard as a kid were all kinds of, um, anything that was to do with, um, um, an emotional expression. It could be opera. It could be rock 'n' roll. It could be jazz. But I was always attracted to powerful, um, expressions of emotion. And, so, I kind of went all the way around the houses and, and, and was really into, um, Buddy Holly and, and, and, and Elvis and, and all of that stuff, until I got into Chuck Berry and, and, and, and, and an edging towards Blues. But I had to kind of, uh, prepare myself for it, really.
 
FUGEE And, (STAMMERS) you mentioned the emotion. I mean, Robert's emotion is kind of, you almost hear, you hear personal pain in that, don't you, in his voice and, and all of that. What do you think, you know, with the benefit of time now, and you've thought about this for awhile and obviously you've stayed in touch with his music and it's always been a cornerstone for you. Um, what do you think was, what did you hear it in, emotionally? What do, what do you think that immediately identified with you?
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) I mean, some of the parallels in his life, in your life, you know, there's a couple of them, you know, that are pretty interesting. Do you think that was contained in the music, somehow, and that's what you identified with?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Trying to (STAMMERS), uh, trying to define what it is about Robert Johnson is very difficult, uh, except to say, I think, that, um, I think what becomes clear is that, and it's almost like it has to be a comparative thing, if I compare him to other artists of his period, his contemporaries like Son House and Charley Patton, I have to say Son House would be an exception because he's, he's so much more raw than any of the others. But what I got about Robert Johnson, what I, what struck me was that it sounded like he was not making any concessions to anybody in what he was doing.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, and, and, and, and it's, it's quite clear, historically, that most people, uh, most Black people of that time were kind of coerced, to a certain extent, into being entertaining. You know, for whoever their, their audience was. That there, there was, uh, there would have to be a certain amount of compromise made. And I didn't get that from his music and I, and it, I don't have any proof that that was the case. Um, and then there really isn't that much evidence or information about him anyway.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) But I just felt, intuitively, that he was, he was being really truthful to himself. And he was writing kind of poetry about the way he felt. Um, and, and, you know, that was fairly commonplace but his was somehow much more adult, in a way, um, than anybody else's. And he wasn't trying to be cute. He wasn't trying to, I mean, there was only a couple of tracks where I felt that he was, he was, you know, kind of playing light, you know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) But a lot of the time, um, and when he was writing about deep stuff, it was really, really, I mean, first of all, the first time I heard Hellhound On My Trail, I, I would avoid that track because it was too, too painful, you know? And, uh, and then, um, only now, really, can I listen to that.
 
FUGEE He always talked about struggling. And, uh, with demons, whether it be women or whether it be he had to travel or, you know, feeling, literally, that hellhounds were on his trail, which is why he liked to tour and travel so much, you know? Um, I know Keith Richards has said, when Brian Jones played him Love In Vain, that, okay, that's Robert Johnson and who else? Because he couldn't believe, you know, I mean, can you, can you explain what he meant by that?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, I, I've, I've played, um, a couple of his songs, a couple of Robert Johnson songs on stage live, with an acoustic guitar. And, and, and both times, I've had to do it with the help of somebody else. Um, we did, um, we did a tour around the album I did called, uh, From The Cradle, where I would, we did a whole Blues tour which, which would open with me doing Terraplane Blues. But I would, I would have Andy fare with a low, sharing the guitar load.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Because, as Keith Richard pointed out, it's almost impossible for one man to do what he's doing on the guitar, let alone sing at the same time. And some of the things that, that he does, as he's singing, to accompany himself, are so, um, opposed to the time that he's singing in, that it's, I mean, it's almost impossible, (STAMMERS) the only way you could imagine doing it if you did it all day, everyday for several years.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, and, and, you know, I wish I could say that I was going to apply myself to doing his material like that but I don't, you know? But that's the way I imagine he did it, you know? But, and it was, I mean, there's so much hard work gone into what he did.
 
FUGEE Oh, yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Um, and, and the refining of his art, and in what they say about, you know, the, the time span that it was all supposed to happen, it's almost impossible. I mean, uh, you know, you got this story about, um, Charley Patton and Son House singing and playing one year and then, a year or two later, there was this (STAMMERS) this master, the maestro came back and blew them all away. And, I mean, it, it, it is, of course, possible.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) If you, uh, if you could apply yourself with that amount of dedication and you had the, you know, a set repertoire, of course, it would be possible. But, I mean, it, the amount of determination and focus and commitment that is required is unbelievable.
 
FUGEE So, therefore, we don't believe the legend. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, I choose not to. I mean, I, I, I prefer to steer away from superstition and, and, and, and, and mystification of these things because, uh, I don't know. It just, it, it, uh, I think in a way, it cheapens it all, somehow. You know? That it makes it, oh well, uh, you know, if it's as easy as that, then anyone can do it. You know? You just can't sign your soul over to the devil and, and you get what you want, or you become a genius or whatever.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I don't really know. I don't buy into all of that. No, I don't. I think it was, um, I, I think he was just incredibly gifted and he found how, he found out how to make the most of that gift.
 
FUGEE Mm hmm. Um, and I think it's just an interesting tale that people like to tell for the sake of ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Just having a story. And, and you're right. Um, now, as you started playing music with bands, how did you reconcile it, with yourself, to play his music 'cause I'm sure, at first, you were like, well, I'm not going to touch this, right?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, I, at the time that I was starting to, um, become involved in, um, the musical direction of bands, which was around, you know, John Mayall and, uh, well, actually, all of my, all of my career, I've had that, that, um, that capability but it wasn't until I think, like, we got that band (STAMMERS) we put this band, Cream, together, where it was much more, um, a much more kind of flexible, um, outfit that we could, that we could go in any, anywhere we wanted.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) We didn't have any particular thing to live up to. We were going to do whatever we wanted. And so I was bringing in material, um, from, from Country Blues and trying to do, uh, we did a song called Outside Woman, which was a very old song and we tried, we did, we did kind of arrangements. And, and I, I found it intriguing to, to, to, and I still do, obviously, as you can tell, by what we'd just done with this album. (BACKGROUND NOISE) I found it intriguing to take solo, um, endeavors like that and, and, and arrange them for a band.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, and what we've done with this new album is an arrangement quite big, uh, where's there three guitars, keyboards and drums and bass and stuff. And, uh, and I, that kind, is a real challenge to me, to try and find the essence of the song when Muddy's playing on the riff or the, the, the character and then, and interpret it into it so that it become, um, you can play in a band on stage. I think that's a great thing to do. Apart from the fact that what we've talked about earlier, which is, it's impossible to do on your own.
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Uh, and that's the reason, I, I, I've chose, chosen to do that. (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE What is your interpretation of, of Robert's music, and, and how you can deal with it changed from the time that, it, from the very beginnings when you were trying to play his music to the present day?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Uh, I think the present day, my present day interpretation of him is much more involved with, um, (STAMMERS) it actually is affected by my attempts to do it (STAMMERS) more than it was then because I think when I first heard Robert Johnson as a kid, I was probably caught up as much with the myth as I was, with actually what he was doing and, and, and a lot of what he was doing was so on the surface of it, so impossible for me to achieve that I just didn't even try to go there.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I think though, the first time we did any of his stuff, I found the simplest one to adapt, which was (SOUNDS LIKE) From Forward Too Late, because it was almost just like, (STAMMERS) almost like a, a folk standard in a way. There wasn't too much, um, to worry about in terms of the technique, um, and the song. But (STAMMERS) and because, um, because they were, there was this in, incredible virtuosity going on, I think that, you know, uh, I was (STAMMERS) happier, really, just to identify with the legend.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, and the, and the, and the whole notion of the, of the, you know, the Black arts and, and, you know, and, and selling his soul and becoming a genius overnight and all of that was really attractive to me as a kid. (STAMMERS) And, and as the years went by that became less and less of an issue, and, and, and I would concentrate more and more and as I do the present day to listening to the nuance and the finesse of what he did.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, uh, and it's amazing that even though, I don't know how those things were recorded what, what, what, uh, equipment was used and, uh, uh, and, and how (LAUGH) how sophisticated what, but it, it's incredible how much you can hear and the tone of the guitar, uh, and really it is, I mean, one of the finest musical experiences there is, to listen to that, uh, to that original record.
 
FUGEE And you were talking about bringing it into bands and stuff, so the John Mayall, Bluesbreakers Rambling On My Mind, that wasn't you or was, or was it a combination of you and John or ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON I, I, I think that was, yeah, that was John, actually, Rambling On My Mind, um, was another one, the, I mean, uh, the, I think I could probably, uh, assimilate to a certain extent without, without really feeling threatened by Robert's version. Uh, (STAMMERS) and there was something about, I think John Mayall saying, you know, you got a window here. Why don't you make use of it, you know what I mean?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Like, and it, and, and, and, and acknowledging his faith me, God bless him, when I didn't think I could sing, I didn't really think it was, um, appropriate for me to attempt anything as massive as that, um, uh, looking back on it, I'm surprised I did, because (STAMMERS) it is quite a hefty, quite a tall order to do a song like that. Um, but, but, uh, there you are, I mean, uh, you know, it's the, it, the flush of youth, you know?
 
FUGEE I guess (STAMMERS), as, as a youth we have a lot more, you know, uh, I, I don't wanna say disrespect, but (STAMMERS), but it's like, uh, there's a certain thing where we're daring, we'll, we'll (STAMMERS), and, and I think that as you grow older, perhaps, what happens is, is what you've done, is go for the essence and the truth of what his music is and, and then thereby increasing, like, respect for what is. (STAMMERS) Do you think that's accurate?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, I think the, the whole, the whole notion that, um, that I could have grasped, what he was, what he was trying to do as a kid was impossible, 'cause I don't know, I mean (STAMMERS) even for him, I don't know how old he was when he made those (STAMMERS), maybe in his mid 20s but I was still only, like, 18 when I was (STAMMERS), when I was trying to, to get to, to figure out what he was doing. And there was no way.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, uh, and, and on the face of it, actually, it's interesting, because I, I had always been interested in the music of older people. Uh, had never really been, uh, could never really totally identify with what would have been teeny bop in those days. It was all, all my heroes were either dead or, or very old, you know, it's, uh, um, and, and so, it (STAMMERS) it, (STAMMERS) it makes sense that I'd really come to understand it (STAMMERS) in a, in a, in my later years.
 
FUGEE Yeah, I mean, you walked out of bands because they were going in that pop direction. (LAUGH) You know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, it seemed to be going backwards to me, though ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... we, you know, where, where I was in, uh, a band like, for instance, The Yardbirds and we were playing to begin with, when I joined The Yardbirds, we were playing music by Howlin' Wolf, Bo Diddley, Muddy Waters, et cetera, et cetera and then ended up trying to perform songs written by someone who was gonna be in 10CC, you know, the, and, (STAMMERS) was kind of, to me, that (STAMMERS), it was an incredibly retrograde progression. But there you are.
 
FUGEE Let's get to the, uh, present time, where you, you (STAMMERS) you (STAMMERS), you came with the idea of, I wanna do a whole album of Robert's music. I mean, give me the thought process that went into that (STAMMERS) thing and then actually doing it.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, last year, um, um, we're talking about 2003, uh, I was conscious of the fact that it was time to make an album and, um, (STAMMERS) we had probably, my partner, Simon Klimey (SP?) and I had been talking about how we, we'd go about it and what (STAMMERS) what we had in mind for it, and I had been, um, we'd done a couple of things, you know, over the last few years, where we stepped in different areas, and we did an album that we really loved making together called Pilgrim, where we just holed up in the studio and did most of it without any help from any, no musicians at all, you know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) It was all machines and, uh, and just making fabrics and ideas out of nothing and that and then I went, you know, did the BB King album and I did, uh, Reptile, then I did, um, and, and in the making of these albums we put together some pretty amazing bands and, and (STAMMERS) I wanted to do that again, but I wanted to, somehow, um, mingle it with, with, uh, with the, with the kind of, um, mental attitude we had for Pilgrim, so we started to write in the spring of 2003 and I would go around to Simon's house.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) (STAMMERS) And any time I got to write from not having attempted to do anything before, I'd always go to a blue sensibility. I, I start to pick out something that comes from my own past or from my, the (STAMMERS),the, my, the past of my tastes. And as this was starting to foment and we were, you know, and spend about two hours a day with Simon at his house and we, we did this for about two or three weeks.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I started thinking about that and, (STAMMERS) and it was almost (LAUGH) like, um, I believe, knowing myself the way I do, that it was almost like I was (STAMMERS) using Robert as a cop out clause, that because I was facing the dilemma of having to come up with original compositions and start from scratch and from the ground floor on (STAMMERS) on an album that would be all original, that I started to look a way of getting out of it.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I've done this before, uh, (STAMMERS) and what I said to Simon halfway through, I said, you know what? I've got this idea (LAUGH), while we're trying to do this album, every, whenever we get a break, let's do a Robert Johnson song. Just for fun, just to see, 'cause maybe, you know, it'll take the strain off of (STAMMERS), you know, what we're really trying to do. And sure enough, you know, we brought in the (STAMMERS), when the time came, we wrote, we wrote as much as we could.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And we got some ideas together. Then we brought the band in, into the studio (STAMMERS) and that's the way we did it. We'd start out with one of these ideas that we've roughed up. I had a couple of words maybe but we grind to a halt, you know, because we haven't got a middle eight, or we hadn't put the whole arrangement together and, uh, run out of steam. And I'd say, well, let's get everyone in the control room, listen to this, and I'd play a track off of the King Of The Delta Blues.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I'd say, we're gonna do that. I don't want anyone to learn anything. Just listen to it a few times and play it the way you feel it. And of course, I had some amazing players, I had Andy Fairweather Low and, and Billy Preston and (SOUNDS LIKE) Doyle Branhorn and Steve Gatt (SP?) and (STAMMERS) and Nathan East. And, and all of these guys, although they come from very, very different (STAMMERS) different musical background, have incredible listening capabilities.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So they would go back out on the floor, and we'd do versions, and, and that album got finished. (LAUGH) See, the Robert Johnson thing was a done deal, you know, and I kind of thought, I (STAMMERS), I knew this was gonna happen, and as we talk right now, I'm in the other room, still working on the (LAUGH) other album, a year later. And it will be another year, I'm sure, before that's completed. So I mean, uh, it, I mean, and I know from myself that, this, this means that this stuff comes from, from the heart.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, a lot of what I do normally will be a mixture of the heart and the head, uh, and the head is very slow. Um, but the Robert Johnson stuff has come from the heart and has been very, very simple and, and, and, and very intuitive and, and, uh, and, uh, as an album, I'm very proud of it, you know.
 
FUGEE That method of working goes, uh, as far back as I know as Layla, right? 'Cause that's what you did then.
 
ERIC CLAPTON We would do exactly the same thing on Layla that we would, um, we'd be halfway through writing something and I'd do (STAMMERS), let's just have a, let's have a rest. Let's oh, um, but of course, you don't rest. You, I mean, everyone, we have a cup of, you someone brings in some tea or something, the guitar is there or the guitar is still in your hands and you start to play and it's like something, something primal comes out.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Or something from your core, something from your past, uh, (STAMMERS), you know, Layla, we were doing, you know, Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out, Key To The Highway, things that go way back for me, but, I mean, wouldn't normally, being, and if I wrote an agenda, what I wanted to do, they wouldn't be on it. You know, they would, they come up when there's a gap, you know, when I, when you relax and you shut down the head, usually, and.
 
FUGEE And also, what you (STAMMERS), were saying before about the head taking a little longer, that's exactly what happened with your last couple of records, too, wasn't it? It's the same thing with Reptile where it took you a while to realize you, about your uncle? You know, same thing, so ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, I, I, I, I, I've, I've, uh, have real trouble with my head, you know, (TECHNICAL)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, I know when I'm recording anything, really, that, they, when I, when I apply this too much, it all just, it kind of grinds to a halt.
 
FUGEE Mm hmm.
 
ERIC CLAPTON I mean, you can make a (STAMMERS), you can make a song, or you can arrange a song and keep going, you know, listen to it, go (STAMMERS) oh, it needs that put, that there, put the, and it all just starts to kind of glue up and, and, and yeah ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) It has to come up from the heart.
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... it (STAMMERS) and yeah, and, you know, they're times when I've, I've, actually, and the lads I work with at the, are really quick, because they know, I mean, the, that the way, the way to get it best is if I pick up the, the guitar and they, they turn it on and, the first thing I play was usually the best that it's gonna be ...
 
FUGEE Hmm.
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... and then we'll go oh, that was good, but it will be better if ...
 
FUGEE If, and then ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) And you just applying that there ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... the minute you apply that kind of reflection or analysis or whatever it is it, it immediately starts to die.
 
FUGEE And part of the problem with that is, is people are so tempted to use the technology that's there today, because you can just ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON You can do it, uh, then you got ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Let me just change that a little there.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) ... endless choices again. Yeah
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Yeah, yeah. (NON-INTERVIEW DIALOGUE)
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) Now Robert Johnson wrote, that we know of 29 songs, right?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Mmm.
 
FUGEE And, um, on this, uh, record we have 14 of them. What was the criteria for choosing the, was, was there some sort of (STAMMERS) method to the madness? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) .
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Well, I mean, there are, there, there are, there are groups of songs, the, that Robert Johnson did, which pretty much fit into, uh, like, a character or a style, I mean, um, Crossroads, Milk Cow Blues, Stones In My Passway, Terraplane, uh, for instance uh, uh, come under one heading for me which is that, um, that there's, there's a riff, and it's, and it's a certain style. And then there are others like, um, Got A Good Friend, uh, uh, Rambling On My Mind, Kind Hearted Woman.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) The, or another style, so what I was trying to do was, um, uh, pick out a song that represented each of those kind of categories or a certain style that he played, um, and, and, and also I was very much motivated by the power of his versions, so, I mean, for me, you know, some of, uh, we (STAMMERS), I wanted to do the most powerful songs that I thought he'd done. Um, for, like, Kind Hearted Woman, I think, is one of the most beautiful love songs.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, and, ever written. And (STAMMERS), and Milk Cow Blues, I've always wanted to do Milk Cow. Because, I mean, it's a, (STAMMERS), I mean, it's a standard now. The, I mean, (STAMMERS) it's a hillbilly rock and roll song and everything but, and I don't know if his is the original version or not. Probably not, but (STAMMERS) his is the first one that I can remember that really sounds that good.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And so it was actually, and also the melodies, like, I, I wasn't daunted by the fact that, you know, the Stones had done Love In Vain. I just thought that was a, a classic version of that particular style of blues, and the melody and (STAMMERS), and, and the content, so I really wanted to pick the ones that I thought were the most significant for me, as a row, as from, from my listening point of view.
 
FUGEE And, and some of the ones, the choices you had are just flat out fun, like the Red Hot for (LAUGH) ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON The Red Hot, the song, the, the Hot, I don't (STAMMERS), I've, I never knew it was called that, Red Hot, the, it's a (STAMMERS), I always thought it was called Hot Tamales, 'cause it's very, but, but, uh, I can (STAMMERS), and, and I heard you see, this is one of those songs where I thought he, he probably would have, he probably had a small repertoire of songs of that nature which we'll never know about. Because I, I heard a rumor that he did things like Blue Moon.
 
FUGEE Yes, he did.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (STAMMERS) You know, when he played, uh, for, for audiences so the, it would, it would have been great to have heard that, you know, but I wanted to touch on that, (STAMMERS) on that particular point, you know.
 
FUGEE Um, the thing about the Red Hot, it's interesting to me, is his voice on that particular song is unlike his voice in virtually anything else (LAUGH) that he's done, it's kind of, I don't know, it's almost comic in a way. I, I, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, (STAMMERS) it's, it's got this little (WORD?) (STAMMERS), it's like (LAUGH), yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah, yeah, (STAMMERS), he, I think, uh, he probably had, you know, the, that was a, a few different faces to Robert that (STAMMERS) we, we'll, we'll never know, but I'm sure he had capabilities, the capabilities to be a clown, to be, to be sad, to be, I mean, the, uh, and he was a genius at all of it.
 
FUGEE And he was an entertainer too (STAMMERS) playing live around to the, to the juke joints or the work, you know, whatever and, and that, I think is what that song was partially for. There was entertainment too.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, I've been asked to ask you about the album title, um, did it come early on? Was it late on? I mean, it, is it obvious what it's all ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) It was, uh, the, the album title was always a bit difficult for me, because it's, I (STAMMERS), I think it was probably inspired by Me And Mrs. Jones, you know, (LAUGH) so just kind of seemed to be a bit of a, uh, (STAMMERS) almost like a spoof really. The, the and, 'cause (STAMMERS), and it, uh, actually came (STAMMERS) with a whole art concept as well where a bit, it would be me sitting in the same pose with a guitar in a suit with a picture of Robert Johnson in a frame on a table.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, (STAMMERS) and Me And Mr. Johnson, I thought, you know, we're just (STAMMERS) in a way, we make, try to kind of make it a little bit light, but, but, you know, really what it, what it's, what it reflects is the fact that, um, you know, he's been there. I mean, it (STAMMERS) he's affected my entire life. I mean, (STAMMERS) it, it's bizarre to think that all of my musical choices have had him somewhere in the equation, that, you know, I would always kind of half consider what (STAMMERS), uh, if he was alive (LAUGH), what he would think about what I do.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, (STAMMERS) it's kind of (STAMMERS), I mean, there's a, is a, an element of obsession involved in it, um, and so I kind of have to refer to that in the (STAMMERS) in the title of the album, I, I mean, there was either that or call it just, uh, Mr. Johnson, or something, but (STAMMERS), you know, um, uh, I don't know.
 
FUGEE The thing I like about that it's, it's, it shows respect, I mean, just calling him calling him Mr. Johnson instead of Me And Robert, you know, uh, you know? Um, how many different guitarists would you use during the recording of, uh, Me And Mr. Johnson did you have all different choices in ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON I used, uh, (STAMMERS), uh, when we were making the album I used, um, Martin acoustics, two (STAMMERS), two different Martin acoustics and, uh, (STAMMERS), uh, (STAMMERS) usually if (STAMMERS) a Fender strat that I normally use, but in, on some of the things, just to give it a slightly (STAMMERS) pre war kind of feeling, I'm, I was using old Gibson, uh, acoustic, um, jazz guitars, uh, with that, with, (STAMMERS), um, amplified jazz guitars.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, L fives with pick ups, and they're quite difficult to play, if you're trying to bend the strings and stuff, but I just found it had that more of a earthy sound, you know.
 
FUGEE It does, I mean, (STAMMERS) it's, it's, the way some of the guitars blend on some of the tracks, it's just amazing, 'cause at first, you, like, there was one acoustic that I swore I thought was electric at first and I, I think I'll get to that a little bit later. Um, um, were any (STAMMERS) guitars, did you need to go out and get any new guitars or were all these ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON No, no we didn't, you see, we, we, we really, we after, I mean, go back to what we were saying earlier about the way we were making the record was that we were actually making another record. So, um, I think that what the beauty of the album's like for Me And Mr. Johnson is that (STAMMERS) it is kind of like, it, uh, it's us having fun, what we've actually, well, there's something else that has to be taken a little bit more seriously.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So the equipment we had on the floor was really all there to, to help us make another kind of record. And then when we would take a break and say oh, let's do a Robert Johnson song, we just used whatever we had on that, that was being used on the other song. So a lot of it was really, um, default, except in situations where, um, say Andy would say I think this needs a mandolin, then he, we, we, you know, we (STAMMERS), we now and then go out and get stuff.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, of course the one thing, the one thing that I forgot to mention which really was on the agenda for Robert and wasn't for the (STAMMERS), was, was to have the harmonica, you know, to have Jerry Portnoy, who I think is one of the great blues harmonica the, I (STAMMERS) come over and play. 'Cause that would not have normally have been on, on the list, to have him come and play on, on a normal kind of rock album.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So, you know, he, the, I mean, I, I must have had it in my mind that we were going to take this fairly seriously. But sometimes I do that stuff, little unconsciously, you know.
 
FUGEE You know, it's probably one of the better ways to do things. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, I wanna go through some of the songs, if we can, okay? Now When You've Got A Good Friend opens it up and the song is like one of the main themes, I think that goes through Robert's music, which seems to be a conflict within all the time, which I guess all of us go in one way or another. Um, we're talking about when you got a good friend that will stay right by your side. Give her all of your spare time, love and treat her right. Yet the next line is I mistreated (STAMMERS), uh, my baby and every time I, I just think about it I, I wring, just wring myself and cry.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, you know.
 
FUGEE Um, is that what appeals to you? I mean, obviously we all just struggle within the good, the bad within ourselves.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well I thought on that song that he was, it was, it was a song of regret, you know. The, um, I mean, the lesson is if you get, if you get, I mean, I kind of felt he was saying, like, next time. Or he's kind of (STAMMERS), you know, he's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he's saying to somebody if you get something good don't throw it away. You know, the, um, uh, but it, there are some, there see now he says watch your close friends, I mean, there are some fantastic lines in there. Watch your close friends and your enemies can't do you no harm.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, there, I mean, there is an element of, of what, it was, like, I believe for Robert in terms of being alone. I think one of the things that, uh, you know, when you ask me earlier about what is about his music is that it's a music of an alone man. I mean, (STAMMERS) you can't and, and, and, you know, you can put it in a group and you can surround it or make it modern or whatever you like. But the actual, the message is coming from a very, very insolent place. I mean, and, and, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or rightly say there's a conflict in it, you know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And a lot of conflict. It's, like, he deals with paradox all the time. You know, and he and conflicts, and he actually contradicts himself in, in many of the songs, you know. I mean, like, Kind Hearted Woman is the same thing.
 
FUGEE Yeah .
 
ERIC CLAPTON There, I, I got a kind hearted woman, uh, who studies evil all the time. I mean, (LAUGH), you know. Uh, and there it says, you know, I kind, you know, I, uh, with, with, with what I'm in right in my life right now I can't completely identify that, but I've been there. I've been, I've been in, you know, so many (STAMMERS) relationships which looked so kind of paradisic on the surface, but underneath there were, you know, something else going on altogether.
 
FUGEE I think every man or woman when dealing with the opposite sex has that conflict.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE And, you know, we're going to 'til the day we die (LAUGH) ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, yeah.
 
FUGEE ... we're going to be trying to figure that one out. I mean, it's not going.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah. I mean, he's also having a little fun too. I mean, that's the way, you know, it's, like, uh, a lot of the guys I know call their wives a ball and chain or the war department or whatever. And it's the same kind of thing. I don't, maybe he wasn't being that serious, you know. Hard to know. (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE Um, the fact that Robert was alone, you were talking about Robert was alone ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE ... and how his peers didn't exactly accept him.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know, and how they in some ways we resented him. So that could be where he comes from that position of loneliness, you know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah. Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know, I think I ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) I, you know, I have the same feeling about Hooker. And I (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I mean, Hooker and his lady (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and actually from a long way through his career had incredible respect and a huge following and, but as a younger player I don't, I don't think too many people thought too highly of him in, in his amongst his peers because he never changed. He just, he was just ...
 
FUGEE The same.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well what it appeared that he wasn't really very good.
 
FUGEE Right but ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) I mean when you listen to his stuff it is astonishingly intricate and very beautiful, but it wasn't like anybody else. I mean, there is that thing about fitting in, you know. Even in the blues.
 
FUGEE Well I think that's exactly what it was because Robert didn't fit in and yet and also the way he traveled and he was a notorious womanizer, you know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
FUGEE And, and, I mean, I want to talk about this, some of this later but, um ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Cool. (TECHNICAL)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I think someone like Elmore Leonard should write a book on Robert Johnson.
 
FUGEE Interesting.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (LAUGH) So I think he's a great writer.
 
FUGEE Yeah. I don't know ... (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) You mentioned that Robert's, uh, music comes from a place of, uh, of being alone before. And, and I think we've talked a little bit about this, about how Robert wasn't necessarily accepted by his peers at the time.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Mm. I think, uh, it's almost as if, um, his proficiency was a, on such a high level that, um, he couldn't, I mean, it, it was, you know, the problem with, I mean, the geniuses are kind of observed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) chess players or whatever. You know, people who have got remarkable gifts often become social outcasts or they don't really or when they don't fit, and I think Robert, um, or Mr. Johnson may have had that problem. Because he, he, I mean, quite clearly he was a cut above the rest in terms of his capabilities. And, and I think, uh, what the others we, we were touching on was just the fact that, you know, he was a womanizer and he was a traveler.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And (STAMMERS) and I got the feeling too that he was very naive. That, you know, um, and, and very green about a lot of things. And that people would probably have had, looked down on him because (STAMMERS) he was probably not too socially aware about how to, I mean, how to get by, you know. I think he was probably taken advantage of a lot. And I tell you, I mean, one of the other people I think was (STAMMERS) almost like a throwback to Robert Johnson was John Lee Hooker.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And that, you know, I saw, I (STAMMERS), I mean, there's some great footage of John Lee Hooker, uh, one of the great, um, well I think it was the Newport Festival where he comes on. And there's just something about the fact, he doesn't look like any of the other people that (STAMMERS) amongst his contemporaries. I mean, it was Muddy there and, uh, and other people, um, (STAMMERS) from that present day blues, um, community. And, and John Lee Hooker, uh, it looks like he, he's completely, uh, doesn't fit. You know, he just doesn't fit.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And it, and it has something to do with the way he, he plays the, you know, he played in one key and he, and he sang receptive lines. He didn't use a 12 bar method. Uh, and all those other guys, a lot of the blues people at that time and, and throughout, you know, have been on their way somewhere. And or they've been part of a kind of thing. Or they, you know, they want to be jazz musicians. They, they want to be accepted. They want to, uh, and I got the feeling with Robert and, you know, with later on also with John Lee, uh, you know, that they were just almost kind, um, cursed with this gift.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, and they didn't quite know what to do with it. I mean, you know, they were just kind of lumbered with it. And, I mean, watching John Lee on stage he had absolutely no idea or interest in stagecraft. He didn't know anything and probably did, wasn't that concerned about what to do to get any kind of effect from the audience. And I would imagine Robert too would have been the same way. Um, and actually reading the notes and I don't know if it's true, but remember the notes on the back of the album that first Delta, The King Of The Delta Blues album, it said that he had to sit facing the corner of the room because of his shyness. I mean, that was just with a guy and the tape machine.
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON So, you know, I get the impression that there are people like that, you know, that, um, that it's almost like what they've got is almost too much to bear for them, you know.
 
FUGEE And the next song, A Little Queen Of Spades, this is a slower blues but the one of the other things is his sexual power. And I felt that this is the way you do it and the way he, very sultry.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, that, did you connect there with that? I mean, is that, did you ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CLEARS THROAT) Yeah there's tongue in cheekness and a kind of like in, in, in his innuendo. You know, the, um, that I really like about (STAMMERS) Robert Johnson that, you know, that he, he's often got a couple of agendas going. You know, there's a hidden meaning or there's something. An, an undertow in, in lyric or in the music. Um, and, and, you know, when we, when we did that I don't think I was consciously trying to, um, uh, be affected by or, or, uh, interpreting that. I just felt that the song could go to a much more kind of, um, uh, kind of slinky treatment.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, that it would, that it would work best that way. And I, uh, and, you know, that, that goes back to that thing is that's what my, that's what my intuition said. And, and we just did it. We just kicked it off that way. It didn't, it wasn't really even discussed, you know.
 
FUGEE And it worked really well.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, now do you think there's mojo here is relating to the Austin Powers' definition or (LAUGHTER) sorry to be cheap. Um ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) That's all right.
 
FUGEE The nice, the, the first lead with the organ in this thing, um, is beautiful. Is, that's Billy?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yes. Billy Preston playing on, played that organ solo on that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Spades yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) And, and, you know, I mean, I, I'd known of Billy as soulful and I hadn't connected him with the blues, but throughout this record both his piano and the organ is just so appropriate. It's just ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Billy's, Billy's, uh, in my, in my (STAMMERS) in my book Billy's, you know, one of the top two or three piano players in the world and, organist, I mean, keyboard player. He is the master. And, and, you know, what we (STAMMERS) we worked with him now over whenever I could, you know. And it, and, and the usual method is we put the tape on or we put the song on or we, we go out on the floor or whatever it is, I mean, for instance if we're over-dubbing we'll play him something once and he plays exactly what we want the first time around.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) He's a first take man. And, uh, and that's the same when with it's with the band or anything. You know, I mean, he doesn't, uh, there is no effort for Billy. I mean, he knows exactly what's the best thing.
 
FUGEE Well and just on the next one too with They're Red Hot that piano was just unbelievable the way that fits in with this, uh, you know, the hot tamales and they're red hot. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
FUGEE Uh, you got any insight into that lyric. You know, the monkey now, the baboon playing in the grass, well the monkey stuck his finger in the old good (SOUNDS LIKE) Gulf gas now. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) In the good Gulf gas. I mean, I don't know. But (STAMMERS) it must have been something to do with, uh, there was, like, there was I remember Muddy Waters doing (STAMMERS) put the tiger in your tank. That's to me it's the same thing. It's, like, there was something obviously going on to do with the sale of petrol or something, you know, the good Gulf gas. I mean, I don't know.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON But, I mean, they, but there's a lot of that, you know, the (SOUNDS LIKE) dozens when he goes back to the dozens. I've heard, uh, you know, um, Jo Jo Gunn was, like, the Chuck Berry version of that. And there's been, you know, little, little kind of vignettes about, you know, jungle animals. (LAUGH) I don't, I mean, it, uh, (STAMMERS) who knows? Who knows?
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) (LAUGH) Now, uh, uh, on your lead in this particular thing that is an acoustic you're playing right? Uh, you got a slide going on and ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON We're talking about, um ...
 
FUGEE Uh, Hot Tamales, They're Red Hot.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) We're talking about Hot Tamales, red, they're red hot.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) See now I'm calling it ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON I was playing actually, no I think, I think Andy was playing acoustic. And I think was playing just lightly playing, uh, a big (STAMMERS) a Gibson L5 because singing that and, and, and, uh, it was almost impossible to play and sing at the same time. So I was just playing every now and then, little lines.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON But that was, well that's a big acoustic, that's, uh, an amplified acoustic guitar. It's a dance band guitar basically.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Right, right. It has that great sound to it though. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) perfect.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah beautiful thing, beautiful thing.
 
FUGEE Now, Me And The Devil Blues, now this is the theme, I mean, there's always been that temptation of women. He likens that to Satan tempting you or the devil tempting you and, and stuff like that. (STAMMERS) it's, it's kind of scary this, this particular song.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Unless you kind of look at it, I mean, uh, I, I would prefer I think because I've, now I've done it and I see myself, I mean, having probably performing it again, a song like Me And The Devil is (STAMMERS) it goes back to that thing of, like, you know, (STAMMERS) almost, like, um, you know, uh, uh, kind of masculine, uh, I don't know, boys will be boys type stuff. And this is what I'm going to call my, it's like a term of endearment. I'm going to, I'm going to prefer on that side to say that I think to a certain extent he was talking tongue in cheek about, about somebody.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, otherwise it just gets too, to me it gets bogged down in being too heavy and too dark. Uh, and I think it's, and I don't think it was always like that, you know. I mean ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) No, uh ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... certainly on something like, uh, Hell Hound On My Trail, and I even then think it was, it was a certain amount of self pity in that song. You know, uh, uh, I mean, who knows? But I don't, I, I imagine until the very end, his life, his, may have been quite, quite a (STAMMERS), pleasant experience, he may have been having a fairly good time. And when he's talking about me and the devil, it may have been someone, some girl that just wouldn't give him his own way when he wanted it, as he wanted it. You know what I mean? Uh, who knows?
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) I think, I think you hit on a key, I think he is, he was having a good time in his life which, as we discussed, Traveling Riverside Blues, I mean, you know what he used to do, when he'd go from town to town, how he would get himself well taken care of. Do you know where he would (STAMMERS) perhaps give attention to, not the most attractive woman around? And ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah, yeah. That's what I heard too, though. I'd, uh, I'd heard that he was, uh, (STAMMERS) or maybe that was due to a certain extent of, uh, his own self esteem, but he went out, uh, he looked for the plain, the plainer ladies. Yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) And the motivation being where, uh, if he did that, number one, they most likely wouldn't have a guy that would come after him, you know, 'cause Robert Johnson was not a big man, you know, which in the South at that time was kind of a necessary thing for respect.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, so he was concerned about if he hit on the wrong woman (LAUGH), he'd be in big trouble and at the same time, this woman, for that little bit of attention, would give him breakfast in bed, that she'd feed him, she'd (STAMMERS) ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) That's right, he would get, yeah, he would get exactly what he wanted from a plainer lady, yeah.
 
FUGEE Yeah, so as, uh, as I, as I, we think of Traveling Riverside Blues, I have that in the background (LAUGH) of my mind, I mean, um, and, and perhaps you'd make him a lemon meringue pie, I don't know what that's (LAUGH), I mean, now Traveling Riverside Blues is, um, I know Led Zeppelin did a version of this one, too, (STAMMERS) as well.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, (SOUNDS LIKE) following enough, this, this (STAMMERS) actually, this is where it all started for me is that we, you know, I went to, um, Los Angeles in 2002 (COUGH) and, uh, I, I, I was there extensively just to sort of start to feel my way into making a record and I got Billy and, uh, (TECHNICAL)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So back in 2002, um, I went to LA ostensibly to start (STAMMERS) dicking my toe in the (STAMMERS) in the water about making a new album and I had really, um, (STAMMERS) it's funny 'cause I had a series of cover version that I wanted to do songs that had been in my head for a long time. And, uh, oh, was a Muddy Waters song, a Taj Mahal song, there was a couple of other (STAMMERS), I mean, all, uh, uh, and a Spinners song.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, just things that, I just wanted to get started and feel, feel my way and, and Traveling Riverside was on that list, and, and (COUGH) and, and we got Doyle Branhall (SP?) and, uh, and Jim Keltner and, uh, and Pino Palladino (SP?) and Billy Preston and (STAMMERS) and we cut that track and when I went home, um, from doing those sessions, the one that stood out, um, the strongest of all of these songs were that were (STAMMERS) and they were all little, little mini tributes, really to the, to the artists that, uh, that had originally done them.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) That the one that stood out was this Robert Johnson song and, I've actually now, I'm sitting here talking about it, I realize that that's the seed of the whole thing, is that, um, although I knew the following year, 'cause we're talking about 2002, I knew that in 2003 I was going to embark on making a new album, that it was gonna be probably as, you know, it was going to be a studio album, compositions, original songs in partnership with Simon, um, Simon Klimey (SP?) .
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, and that we had talked about Pilgrim, we but, uh, we would try to mix it with, uh, I had in the back of my head that how strong this, I mean, compared with everything else that I'd done, in, in these sessions, how strong this Robert Johnson song was and, uh, and it, and it kept coming up to the surface, so that when, you know, when we did start to do this on, that's when I said to, to Simon, you know, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea just to do this every now and then.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So, I mean, Traveling Riverside was, was the one that got it stoked up for me, you know, (STAMMERS), uh, 'cause I had forgotten how good these songs can be when, when they are arranged for a rock band, you know.
 
FUGEE Oh, yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Yeah, which, um, in The Last Fair Deal Going Down, this works incredibly well in this context of a rock band. Um, this, this song actually has to do with the building of the railroad, I guess, in the Mississippi.
 
ERIC CLAPTON I didn't know that, I ...
 
FUGEE Mm hmm?
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... didn't know that. I don't know, see, a lot of the time, I, the history of this stuff is beyond me, I mean, I or it, and, and, and half the time, doesn't the I don't even get motivated to find out. I, I mean, it, it's only when say, when we sit and try to discuss what the lyric is, I'm, 'cause I'll sometimes ask some (STAMMERS), some of the Am
 
ERICan guys, do you know what he's talking about? (LAUGH) (INTERVIEWER LAUGHS) What does he mean?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And they're, you know, when we looked at the lyric on this one, on The Last Fair Deal Gone Down, the fourth or the fifth verse, I'm not sure which one it is (SOUNDS LIKE) and it's camp A, B and C. I mean, when you look at the, the, the album or the notes, and we looked on the Internet and everything, (STAMMERS) everyone just throws up their hands and we don't they say, and actually they say, you can, if you're gonna do this, you can write anything you like. 'Cause we don't know what he's saying.
 
FUGEE (LAUGH) It does give you license in that direction but I believe it has to do with what is called the Golf And Ship Island Railroad, and it linked the docks at Ship Island, Mississippi, just off the mainland of the Gulfport, with the mainline at Jackson, so they could take the goods and ship the cotton or whatever it was from down there up, up which, uh, and, and the narrator apparently is working for building this railroad line to get money and course, they paid nothing. (LAUGH)
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) Well, anyway, um, The Stop Breaking Down Blues, now to me, this is one of those songs that I hear and I, and I say, well, how does Robert do both? How does he sing this and play it at the same time? And this, is this what you would think on this or ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Very, very, this, Stop Breaking Down, um, I wouldn't have thought was difficult until I came, came to do it, and, and I, I know the Stones did this too, as well as Love In, they did Stop Breaking Down as well as Love In Vain, and I can't (STAMMERS), I've only ever heard their version, I think, once or twice. I can't remember how they approached it. We did it the way we did it, because it seemed to fit with the essence of the written part that he had.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I didn't sing this live, because I can't remember why, now, but I, I think it was because I hadn't learned the words or couldn't get them to scan in, 'cause we, we were (STAMMERS), I think we'd got to the end of our time in the studio, and the guys all had to leave the, you know, within a day or two, and we needed to get this cut as a track so I knew I wasn't gonna be able to learn to sing it in time to get the track done.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So we, we, the decision was let's get the track and then we'll do the vocal later. Now on, on, in actual fact, all the rest of the album with the exception of Last Fair Deal was done live, where I sang everything and played everything live, we did everything live, except for those two tracks, because of the, the lyric, and, and the, and the way he sang it, now Stop Breaking Down, there's something where it's, uh, um, uh, oh, God what is it? The second version was it love to ape and clown and do nothing but tear a good man reputation ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tear a good man reputation, yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON ... I mean, you try and, it's like a tongue twist, now the fact that he did that and kept time with his right hand or his thumb is beyond belief. I mean, that's exactly where you get that thing about Keith saying, well, how, how many people were there playing? Because to be able to sing in a scat way like that and go off the time and yet keep, keep time in your own hands, it's, like, your hand if completely independent to what your body is doing. It's totally, totally remarkable.
 
FUGEE Yeah, and then, of course, the braggadocio on the stuff I've got will bust your brains out, baby. (LAUGH) You know, (LAUGH) those, which supports your thing about he was having a good time. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE (LAUGH) Um, now you mentioned the, um, Milk Cow's Calf Blues, um, which again now, there, there's the metaphor in there, you know, you always think that there's the sexual thing in, in running underneath it, yeah?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Mmm.
 
FUGEE You know, I'm ready to milk and (LAUGH) and then the cow has gone somewhere?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Mm hmm.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, I, I, uh, Milk Cow I (COUGH), (STAMMERS) it, I don't know what it is about that song but I find that very sad, and I don't, I don't hear it as a, um, I don't hear so much of the sexual stuff in there that they say, that is, uh, you know, that is supposed to be in the content of the song. It's, it's just the way he sings it is so sad and it's just, it's, to me, I mean, all of his songs, all of his best songs are kind of love songs, (STAMMERS) songs of loss.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, and, and that one's got it for me. And, and it's in, it's in the way he plays it too, there's something powerful (STAMMERS) and, and, uh, and sort of, uh, tentative or I don't know how to describe it. I mean, it's so difficult talking about this stuff, um, um, about what he has done. But, but some of these songs, uh, are so emotionally, um, tight, and that one is one of them, you know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) That I always want, I, that was one of the ones that I thought if we can pull that off, we can do anything, we can do (STAMMERS) and actually we did, we recorded Milk Cow about fourth song on the session, and, and I thought that's it. If we don't get anything else and we've done that, my, my dreams have all come true, 'cause it's been one of my favorites, um, from the (STAMMERS), from his version.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Anywhere from when he's, goes in from the intro to the main riff is one of the most powerful moments in music, and we got that, and then I thought, well, uh, now we can do anything we like, maybe, after that.
 
FUGEE And we talked a bit about, um, Kind Hearted Woman Blues and, you know, the conflict, the, not, not only the conflict but the, the, the contradiction within that and everything. Um, um, now there, there was two different takes of this song, too. And, you know, I, I guess you consciously chose one, but the, the other take of Kind Harm (STAMMERS) Hearted Woman Blues and (STAMMERS) someday I would shake your hand goodbye.
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) I can't give you any more my loving, 'cause I just ain't satisfied. You know, which is quite a different way that, you know, (SOUNDS LIKE) steadying evil all the time, which is, I guess, the way the other one, um, lends. Now this is one of the only songs, I think, that Robert (STAMMERS) actually takes, uh, what, what be called a proper lead. I mean, although you can say that the fact that he answers himself oftentimes is kind of like a lead as well.
 
FUGEE (CONTINUED) Um, but, did, did, did you ever (STAMMERS) become aware, I mean, that this was really the song that he took his own lead in (STAMMERS), uh, you know, lead break in?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Um, I, see (STAMMERS), one of the, one of the easy parts of making the album for me was that, uh, until the unreleased stuff came out, I mean, I had grown up, um, listening to what I thought was the only album. I mean, for a long time most of us, the, most of, most of us that were fans or, or record buyers, you know, whatever (STAMMERS) were only, um, conscious of there being one Robert John, The King Of The Delta Blues was the only Robert Johnson album.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Then there was this kind of massive discovery. Ah, there's this other album, you know, there's a whole, whole other set of songs plus alternative takes, now I don't know how this stuff came to be in the first place that we, you know, there got to be one album. Someone made that selection obviously at Columbia. But, um, and (STAMMERS) whoever did it, I believe, did an incredibly good job. I mean, there was, it's sad that we didn't or it's wonderful or whatever it is, that we didn't get to hear Love In Vain and, uh, and some of the other stuff until later on.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) But for my mind, all of the choices they made in terms of the, the, the takes were the best ones. So the, so from my, you know, my take oh them, uh, (STAMMERS) all of the choices I made, the Milk Cow is the same. The, you know, two versions, where there's two version, I've chosen the one that, the was on the original album. And, and, and for me Kind Hearted Woman, it was interesting, 'cause when we were listening to Kind Hearted Woman, for the band, to, to assimilate what they, or to figure what they were gonna play, I said well there is another version that is slightly rougher.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And it was the same also with, um, Come On In My Kitchen. The, you know, the alternate version sometimes seemed like they're a bit more throwaway, oh, or they're not so refined, or they (STAMMERS), they don't have the, um, the finesse. And, and I went for the original ones each time as, in terms of, uh, my, you know, which, uh, which one, I identified with, you know.
 
FUGEE And it could very well be the thing, too, you know, we talked about before which was the head coming into it ... [END OF TAPE: ] TAPE NUMBER: 2
 
ERIC CLAPTON I don't know, you know? But I, I mean, I love it. I, I love it 'cause it's a really personal thing, you know?
 
FUGEE No, no, no. Uh, and, and what I think you've done is a remarkable thing because it's passing it on in a way, you know what I mean?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah. Yeah.
 
FUGEE Uh, I mean, the box set of Robert's did astoundingly well by anybody's standards but ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Not to, like, what your audience is ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know? So bringing that (BACKGROUND NOISE) to a, another audience and in such a loving way ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Is a fantastic thing.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Except, it kind of, the funny thing is ... (TECHNICAL)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, the funny thing is that, it, it, I, I wonder why I never thought of this before. You know, it's such an obvious thing for someone like me to do because here, maybe it took me all of my life to realize the, the extent of how, how much this guy's music has influenced me. I don't, you know, 'cause it, I mean, sometimes people come and go in their music. My musical tastes, I thought, were evolving and changing and changing and changing.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) But I've never really gone very far. In fact, I haven't gone anywhere, at all. I still, I still (STAMMERS) when I want to hear something, that, that I know is going to move me, I go back to the same place. I'll probably get the same, you know, I, and it's funny. I, I try to go to record stores and find, like, The Best Of Muddy Waters with the same cover, as it originally, you know what I mean? I'm like that. I, I'm a bit of a purist like that or, you know, to get, you know, the Robert Johnson album with the same cover.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) The, you know, the King Of The Delta. So, in a, in a sense, it, it, it is, it, it is kind of quite logical that I've done this. It's just that, I go, eh, why did it take me so long to figure out that this was exactly what I should do?
 
FUGEE Probably because it was too important for you.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know? And, and, and just getting your head around it would take a long time.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE I would imagine.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know? And it, and it had to get to the point where you ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON There's a time and a place for everything, yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Exactly. Exactly.
 
ERIC CLAPTON There's a time, and this is it.
 
FUGEE Yeah. Oh. And, and the thing I love about this, much like, I guess, Alexis Korner would be or, or Cyril Davies was, at, at a point in, in the history here, you're doing the same thing, kind of. It's like a parallel. Do you see that?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know? And, and, um, and it's a payback. It's, it's a give-back, you know? It's, it's paying homage and, and that's a, a wonderful thing and, at the same time, you're, you're going to turn on a whole 'nother audience, you know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON I hope so. I mean, I, I don't really know how it will be received but it, in the, you know, and, and there is that copout clause that, well, it's someone else's music so it's not quite so, so much of a jolt if it doesn't go down well. I mean, there's always that bigger thing of when you make a, an album, you put an album of original compositions that, if it doesn't do as well as you would like it to, uh, there's an element of disappointment, and a feeling of rejection and etc., etc..
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) The critics, they're going to, you know, I know, I mean, I've got so used to the critics coming after me. And I don't know what it is. It's 'cause I want, I suppose I don't play the game on some level, you know? That, um, I, I just, I wonder what they'll do about it. But, but with something like this, it's a labor of love where the whole, the whole experience was in the studio. Um, I'm making the music with those guys and loving doing it. And now you let it go and, and, and will it, it's picked up on a, is almost irrelevant, you know?
 
FUGEE I, uh, it's, it's very hard to blind yourself to what people say about something ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) As personal as this.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE However, it's really the best course ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Uh, and especially 'cause you know ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know where all of this is coming from.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE And what they interpret it and what they think, you have no control over.
 
ERIC CLAPTON I have no control over.
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON I know. I know.
 
FUGEE Right. Okay.
 
ERIC CLAPTON It's that funny thing, actually, about being, especially live performances that, I can never really identify with people who spend their lives trying to figure out what the audience wants. But it's, how the hell will you ever know? I mean, I stand up on the stage and I look out at the crowd and I think, well, I don't have any idea of what's going through your heads so I'll just do what I think is the best. You know?
 
FUGEE It's worked pretty well. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON So far. So far.
 
FUGEE Um, the next song, If I Had Possession Of Judgment Day, now this is the song that, I guess, is going to be released first from this record. Do you have any thoughts about that process? Do you, do you, or do you just say, here?
 
ERIC CLAPTON I don't know. I, I, I, I would have, uh, my choice is Milk Cow. And, uh, and Simon and I both agree on that. And, and then, you know, where there's this, an element of hand, like, we were just talking about, when I hand this product over to the record company, what they make of it is out of my control. I have no idea what they would, I mean, my, when I, when that came back to me, the, um, If I Had Possession was going to be the choice to, to push.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And because I don't know what it is anymore that it's, is it a single? It's not, who knows what that is all about, what, the, how the business works? I have no idea how selling records works anymore. I don't think it really works at all, actually. Um, but there, but they still have to have a track for some (LAUGH) reason. The, and, and I don't, I mean, I just think it, it's probably because it's fast. (LAUGH) You know and I, that's what, I mean, uh, who knows?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, may, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they see something I don't. But for me, um, my choice would have been Love In Vain or Milk Cow or, or When You Got A Good Friend. Uh, just something to do with the way those tracks feel. I, I, and I love all of them but I don't think Judgment Day is as strong as any of those other ones.
 
FUGEE Well, the interesting things about Judgment Day, in terms of the lyrics, though, is how Robert responds to the woman being gone and just folding my arms and realizing, you know, it's like a karma thing almost.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) You know, where, which takes a certain wisdom and, you know, uh, you have to, you know, I, I don't know, just ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON But it's also, I mean, and, and, and it, I mean, from what I understand, what he says in the first, you know, if I had possession over all the women that didn't have nothing, would have no right to pray. I mean, whoo. I mean, it's a little bit, I mean, the, the, the (WORD?), I got into a little trouble over, uh, stuff that I've written, you know, with, about, talking about shotguns behind the door and stuff.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, yet, 32, I mean, there's, you know, tracks on this album that, you know, I, I mean, public domain nearly and, and it's, it's as insightive as anything I could ever write, you know?
 
FUGEE Well, in, in some ways, uh, it's very insightive, (LAUGH) you, you know? It's, like, I mean, you just mentioned one of the songs, the 32/20 Blues which, like ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Now what are they going to do when that comes, I mean, who's going ...
 
FUGEE Ooh.
 
ERIC CLAPTON It's been out there a long time. I mean, uh, it, are they, is this going to cause when they're, this, this cause, cause some controversy, maybe. I don't know.
 
FUGEE Now, when you, when you did, like, 32/20 Blues, did you go back to the Skip James and the, the what was it, 22/20. I mean, I guess it ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON I don't know that one.
 
FUGEE Oh, okay.
 
ERIC CLAPTON No, I don't know ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) 'Cause that had a piano in it ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Okay.
 
FUGEE And I was thinking that, uh, maybe that's, that's where you caught that because, ah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON No, you know what it is, when we're, the character of that song, 32/20, needed to be pushed along. And, and in some sense, I felt that, you know, Billy, there's something about Billy, too, when, when Billy plays in a band, I mean, uh, it's worth mentioning here. I, one of the reasons I loved to have Billy play, when we do live gigs, is that he can drive the band in a way that nobody else can in, even, you know, Nathan's great.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Uh, you know, Nathan's at the back end of it, pushing it along but there's something about the way the band will focus. If you got a group of musicians and Billy, everyone, for some unknown reason, it's, it's purely intuitive, I'm sure, uh, and maybe even metaphysical, whatever it is, they will watch and listen to Billy. He is like a natural bandleader. And, so, you know, when I, uh, in a dilemma like, well, how do we create a groove on a song like 32/20. I go, well, Billy, uh, up to you. You know, and, and just give it to him and he knows exactly what to do. It, first, straight away.
 
FUGEE That's, that's fabulous. The, the piano in that is tremendous.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
FUGEE Just tremendous. Um, uh, (STAMMERS) I wanted to just go back to Love In Vain for one second here because there's, the image that's so evocative is that train pulling out of the station with the lights. I mean, it's like a movie in your head.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You know? Do you get the same picture?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Is it Casablanca?
 
FUGEE Yes.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (STAMMERS) It's like Casablanca in the Blues, to me, that song. Love In Vain. Is it, I mean, I, and it is, I remember the Stones doing it and thinking, oh, God, I don't know if you did it justice, you know? And I mean, God bless them, I, I love, I love that band and I, you know, they're old mates of mine and everything. But, uh, I, I, I don't know. I don't know that they, I, I, this is why I wanted to do it still because, and, and I don't know if I did it justice either but there's just, you know, the beauty of, of that, the poetry of that song is, is phenomenal. It's so simple.
 
FUGEE You see, that's why I think both versions are really good.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah, okay.
 
FUGEE Because it's the poetry within there and, and, and they're different. They're very different ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE But, but, boy, that's such a great song. And the more that song's heard, the better. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Okay. Um, now, I guess the, that we talked a bit about Hellhound On My Trail and, um, there's one thing about that song, though, one, one thing I read about Robert is, one of the unique things he brought into the whole thing was bringing some New Orleans into the Blues.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Hmm.
 
FUGEE And I feel that the way you're doing this here illustrates that.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE You, do you agree?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I mean, it, you know, it, it, when we came to that one, it was difficult. Um, it, Hellhound On My Trail, uh, on, on the, I mean, on the face of it, I would, it's like, there were a couple of songs, when I played them to the band, I'd look around at their faces and there'd just be blank stares. And I think, well, how, are you serious? You want to, you know some of the guys have not really listened to Robert Johnson at all before. I mean, and this was, I'm in (STAMMERS), I mean, you know, it's that thing about, well, this is the love of my life.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I hope you like it. And now we're going to try and do something about it. And, uh, and you know, out of respect for me or whatever it was or the job in hand, they got on with it. But you could see that there were times when they just thought, well, what are we going to do with this? And, and Hellhound On, his version of Hellhound On My Trail is so, I mean, on the face of it, it sounds completely chaotic. And, and so we had to study it, verse by verse, to find out where, you know, he does this part, that time.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) But he doesn't do it the next time. Each time we play a verse, it's slightly different. And there were little, funny little time signatures that go on underneath, and you think, did he really mean that, or was that a mistake, or, well, whatever it was, we had, we can either ignore it or we respect it and try to do it. And, and, and that was one of the ones where we, we took it apart and we studied (STAMMERS) everything he did.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And either we did it the way he did it or we, we encapsulated it in some way. And I'm really proud of that track. I mean, I think that's the, and, and the funny thing was that it had to be the last track on the album because, on King Of The Delta Blues, it was the last track on the album. And, for me, it was, that was the kind of, the ultimate tribute right there, was that this is how it ends, you know?
 
FUGEE Well, uh, I congratulate you, I think you did Robert proud and that ain't easy.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Oh, no.
 
FUGEE So, congratulations. Uh, it's a fine record.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Thank you very much, Dam.
 
FUGEE A great record.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Thank you.
 
FUGEE (BACKGROUND NOISE) And there's a beep. (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE Now we need to talk about taking this on the road.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE Um, tell me what your plans are, at the moment.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, the next, uh, the next year will be giving up, um, pretty much to touring. Um, and as this is the album that I'll, that, I mean, I think it's probably due to come out sometime in March, hopefully, hopefully, late March or the beginning of April, um, we'll be touring around Europe for those two months, March and April. And a bit of May, coming back, finishing in London in, in May. Then, um, I'm going to start up in Am
 
ERICa with a jazz, I'm, I'm (STAMMERS) not a jazz festival, a guitar festival in, in Texas.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, which will be, um, something I've been dreaming about doing for years, so at, where I'm, I just asked a bunch of people that I really admire to come and play, um, at, at, at an outdoor event. And, and the money would go to Crossroads, uh, Foundation in Antigua, the, the rehab that we built over there, years ago. And, and they'll be an auction of all the guitars that are played, plus a good deal of the ones that I've, uh, (SOUNDS LIKE) masters a collection of, of, of Christies in, in, uh, the end of June.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) So, June and, uh, July and a bit of August, I think, I'll be touring across Am
 
ERICa and then, um, then I'll stop. But, um, I've got to find, I mean, try to figure out how much of this album I can put into the show. I mean, eh, we've got rehearsals in, um, the beginning of March and, and for me, it's, it, it's a, it's a trial, a question of trial and error. I want to know really how to, how to put this show together. And I mean, I use this, (STAMMERS) this word show very, very lightly because it is, there isn't any show, believe you me.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) It's just a bunch of people playing as well as we can. But, but it will be interesting to see how these songs, 'cause, 'cause most of them were performed live. Unfortunately, I won't have all the musicians. I don't know if I'll have all the musicians that were on the record or it's still not decided yet who's exactly in the band. But, but I would like, I mean, I'm still going to have to perform some of my (STAMMERS), you know, kind of old material, uh, and mix it up. So, it's, it's a, a little bit of a challenge.
 
FUGEE Well, there's a couple of things I need to get to. Uh, number one, who are those guitar players you're talking about at that (LAUGH) festival?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Um, well, I mean, there, all of my heroes, I'll be there, you know, Carlos and hopefully Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page and all of the people that, I mean, I've, I haven't yet read, heard replies from everybody. But, I mean, uh, uh, I, I would love Joao Gilberto to be there. I would love Pat Metheny to be there. I'm not sure they can be. I do know, for (STAMMERS) Buddy Guy and, and Otis Rush and, and Carlos can make it.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, I mean, it's a long list. And, and Sonny Landreth and, uh, Jimmie Vaughan. And, you know, I mean, it, it, it will be a, a mouth watering event for someone, I mean, with, who's got my taste. So, I mean, but it is, it is an, it is a unique thing because it's not, you know, I'm not pandering to anybody. I'm asking the people I want to be there, you know? And, uh, and, and, and if they can make it, they will be and, and it, it will be a great event.
 
FUGEE And the great thing about that, I mean, you mentioned the auction of the guitars for Crossroads which, I know, you, when you went through this last time, was kind of emotional (LAUGH) for you, wasn't it, because ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yes, of course.
 
FUGEE You're letting go of ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, it will be even more so this time because, uh, some of the guitars were actually, I mean, uh, when I had that last auction, I was holding back the best stuff (LAUGH) . And now that I'm letting go of the best stuff, so, you know, there's a, there's a, um, you know, there's Blackie, the, the black Stratacaster (SP?) is going to permanently be the, uh, the star item. Um, but it, I kind, kind of reconcile myself to the fact that it never gets used anymore.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, whether it gets used, I mean, I, it just stays in its case and it doesn't seem right, when actually, it could make, it could make some money that would go towards some, saving someone's life. I mean, much more, it makes more sense to me. I mean, it will probably, then, go into a, another collection and not get used again. But, at least, it will have a moment of glory and help somebody.
 
FUGEE Um. Um, I'm so happy you changed your mind about touring 'cause I know last time out, I think you were talking about, like, uh, I don't want to do a lot of touring.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Well, I've been retiring for all my life, I mean, I, I mean, I, when I quit the Yardbirds, it was, I was, I was getting, convinced it was the end then. I was only, you know, 19. I retired when I was 19. So it will probably, it'll happen every year, you know?
 
FUGEE Well, as long as you don't really mean it, it's okay. (LAUGH)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, one day, I will, I think. Well, I don't know when.
 
FUGEE No, I just think, now ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON I always think I do mean it, too.
 
FUGEE I know you do.
 
ERIC CLAPTON So.
 
FUGEE I know. But, I mean, I think it's great when, when performers like yourself and, and the Rolling Stones, when people go out, I mean, there's no real set thing as you have to stop here, you know what I mean?
 
ERIC CLAPTON No.
 
FUGEE And you shouldn't, if you feel up to it. I mean, if you want to.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, if I, I mean, for me, the ultimate thing has been trying to find a balance so that I'm not always out on the road and I'm not just at home. I mean, the, I think, 'cause one really, one really sets the other one up, the other one up. You know, you can't, I don't think it's possible to work well entirely on the road but without having some kind of personal experience to draw on, you know, you have to have a balance.
 
FUGEE Okay. Now, um, let me ask you a couple of the Yardbird questions, okay?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah.
 
FUGEE All right. One of the, uh, the guitarist before you in the Yardbirds was Tony "Top" Topham, right?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah. That's right.
 
FUGEE We very rarely hear about him. Um, you, you must have seen him play, right? Did you see him play?
 
ERIC CLAPTON A couple of times, yes, when I, when I was, was invited to go and see the band, um, with the idea of me coming in. Um, my, it was an awkward situation because I don't think he knew that he was going to be replaced. But I was in the audience to see him play and, uh, at that point, you know, there was no, there was, nobody was playing any kind of lead. I mean, it, it, uh, there was Chris Dreja and him and, and Paul Samwell Smith and there were, and it was just riffing, you know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) All we did then was, I mean, it, I, I don't think I played any lead either, when I first joined the Yardbirds. We were just learning the riffs, you know, blues riffs.
 
FUGEE I think what we're also interested in trying to figure out is where the rave up come from? Was that a Yardbirds thing?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah, it was, uh, I think ...
 
FUGEE Were, were they doing it before you were in?
 
ERIC CLAPTON I don't know whose idea it was, they were doing it before I joined. I mean, uh, and it was, uh, well, it, like a climax kind of thing. They, uh, the whole thing was that you would, uh, you'd go, it was like, just dynamics, really. It was a kind of very, very, (STAMMERS) uh, innocent kind of naive form of (STAMMERS) dynamics, where you go quiet and then you get louder and then, you know, and, and it would build up to a crescendo and then, uh, you'd kind of, and then that'd be a release, you know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, and it, and we'd put it in every song, more or less. And it, you know, the, and then, and then the fast ones, it was, it'd be, it was what they would call a rave up.
 
FUGEE And that's, like, a blueprint, though, for almost every live performing band is to create those moments where it rises and then ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON That's right.
 
FUGEE You know, and so ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE So that did originate with the Yardbirds 'cause I was wondering, maybe, were the Stones doing it at the, at the Crawdaddy there or ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON No, they weren't. You know, they were, they were performing, they were doing covers, really, the Stones, for, I mean, for as long as I could remember, they did really, really faithful covers of, of anything that was, you know, Muddy's or Chuck Berry's or Bo Diddley or, (CLEARS THROAT) or Wolfe (SP?) or anything like that. But they didn't really open it up.
 
FUGEE Now, uh, uh, uh, the other thing was is that, and maybe we've already covered this, um, but your, yourself in relationship to the blue now, Blues now, as compared to when you were first playing with Mayall and those people, was, was it, you know, like we said, was it more like cavalier at the time, at the beginning, to the point where, I mean, how has that relationship to the Blues changed?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, I think, today, I would regard myself as a musician who plays the Blues. Where, and, and I, and I don't know, as a kid, I was, uh, I had, would have had the confidence to have been able to say that about myself. And it was something that was aspiring to and I think I aspired to it for at least 2-3rds of, of, of my career. And then, at some point, I just thought, well, you know, now I'm actually, I'm playing with the people that I've admired. And I'm, I'm able to converse with them in their language.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, and, and it's become my language, too. So, I kind of feel like I'm, I've arrived at somewhere where I can just, you know, relax and not really worry about who I am. This is what I do. So, playing the Blues really is my first, is my first calling, as a musician. It's my first calling and it's what I do, without having to think about it.
 
FUGEE And, um, finally, I was asked to ask you, what is, are the favorite, most favorite, I'm sure there's more than one, but what are the favorite collaborations that you've done?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Oh, God. I, I don't know, I love them all. I mean, I loved, I loved working with B.B. I mean, the, the thing is that there are very few that have, you know, high, high visible evidence. An, well, obviously B.B.'s is one because we, we had a very, very, um, successful album. But there have been a lot of really, um, other significant collaborations that, which one didn't, maybe didn't get on record. I mean, my, playing with Buddy, I mean, there is something about playing with Buddy that, um, we haven't, I don't believe we've done it properly yet, on record, anyway.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And that is one, my next ambition, um, to play with Buddy Guy and make a record with him. Um, (SOUNDS LIKE) has Berry, and playing with him has been some of the most enjoyable experiences 'cause you just don't know what's going to happen and it's exciting, you know? And, and, and, and, and he, and I mean, B.B.'s the same. I mean, there is something about where you, you kind of up, up the stakes with one another, uh, in a live situation when you, I don't know, it's one, at some point, something's got to give, you know?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And I usually throw my hand up, throw the towel in. But those kind of experiences, I mean, and, and I've had them with great, I mean, great people, I mean, I've been very, very blessed and lucky.
 
FUGEE Um, and, and I guess that, um, boy, there's so many things but I just want to talk for a moment about the concern for George because you were the ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Musical director and you obviously took a lot of, on your shoulders at that time. And, um, did that experience become a healing thing for you? Um, and, and was all that work really heavy, at the time? I mean, was it such a burden? Was it?
 
ERIC CLAPTON Uh, well, it, it, in answer to the first part of your question, uh, I, it was a, uh, (STAMMERS) the concert for George, at the end, and the actual concert was almost transparent (BACKGROUND NOISE) for me. Um, what was ... (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE I wish I could have been there for that. That was special. That was ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) That was wonderful, yeah. It was great.
 
FUGEE The feeling.
 
ERIC CLAPTON It was great.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, it's funny, I have, you know, is that I don't have any desire to say this on record but I mean, I don't have a great, um, appetite for DVD or, or film performance. There's very little, uh, I've seen on film, other than people who are incredibly, um, rare, you know, like seeing Billie Holiday ...
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Or someone like Coltrane ...
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON On film. Um, that, I treasure, but a lot of the time, I, (BACKGROUND NOISE) and I have the highest regard for, for the visual side of the music. And, and yet, you know, this is what became a big issue with, with the concert for George, you know? When we were talking about doing it, it never entered my head (BACKGROUND NOISE) that would become an issue. (BACKGROUND NOISE) But, of course, as, as it went by, you know, DVD, DVD, DVD.
 
FUGEE Right. And did that intrude a lot?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) And, and, um, no. Uh, to be, to be absolutely fair to everybody, it was, it was really well managed. But it was the first, it was the first evidence that was given to me of the whole thing. It was, like, here's the DVD. Do you want it on, and the film, too, when we watch, went to the premiere of the film. And I loved it and everything but when they gave me the CD, I, I was on tour in Japan, I put the CD into, um, I was playing with my computer, I put the CD in and I started to play a little game on the computer, like, uh, Solitaire or something. And I started listening to the CD and I heard it for the first time. (BACKGROUND NOISE)
 
FUGEE Uh huh.
 
ERIC CLAPTON And when I watched it on the DVD, I was so kind of concerned with, oh, I didn't see so and so. Oh, so and so is over doing that over there. I was completely kind of in, um, held by the visual side of it, or distracted, I suppose.
 
FUGEE Well ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON And it wasn't until I heard the CD that I realized how fucking good the concert was.
 
FUGEE Exactly. I mean, the thing is is so many people could not be there, obviously, and ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yeah.
 
FUGEE And ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well, that's why we did it.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) You know, be, see, when we sat down and talked about the concert in, in its first place, the concept was, if you don't get there, you, it, it, I mean, no cameras.
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON This is for his friends and whoever could afford to get in and buy the ticket or get there on, in time to get seats. And it was kind of selfish, in that respect. So, with him, you know, with a little, with a little bit of reflection (BACKGROUND NOISE), you know, in the cold light of day, we all ended up saying, no, they'll, they'll be people who will be really sad not to have been there, you know? And it's not fair.
 
FUGEE Yes.
 
ERIC CLAPTON So then we, that's when we opened that door.
 
FUGEE Oh, I'm glad you did 'cause, you know, there's, like, people like me that, you know, just treasured that night.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Would never, yeah, would never.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON But, anyway, there, uh, the concert, um, the concert for George's thing was really, um, it was like I was the last, I was left holding the baby in a way, because, uh, um, I, I had asked a friend of mine, Brian Rowlands (SP?), who was also a very close friend of George's, shortly after he died, I said, well, what's going to happen, you know? Uh, is there any, anyone talking about doing some kind of, um, as, as just a get together, a musical get together ...
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Just, 'cause I mean, there's, there's going to be great music. (TECHNICAL)
 
ERIC CLAPTON Um, with regard to, um, the concert for George, uh, uh, it started out, uh, over, over dinner with a friend, uh, uh, a friend we had in common called Brian, Brian Rowlands. And, I, I, it was not long after George had died and we were talking about the effect it was having on people we knew, on one another, and I said that, um, I asked, I, I said, what, what's going to happen? Is there any, any, anything in, in the offing in terms of kind of, uh, you know, um, a musical get together?
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) I mean, I, well, actually, wouldn't it be great? And he said, well, no. Not unless you do something. You know, and, uh, and I think those were his very words. And I (WORD?) oh, oh, okay. And I thought, well, what do you do? You know. What do you do? Um, (STAMMERS) I mean, I'm just mentally kind of made a list of the people that, that were close to George, and that he worked with and, and, and that, um, he would want them. We had to kind of think about what he would want, and what Olivia would want, and, and that's where it went from there.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) And, um, and it, and it kind of, it gathered momentum until the day that rehearsing started and, and, uh, you know, we'd come and, and visit it as a concept, and then talk to different people. And we gathered up people. And, and everyone was really up for it. And, and, and not once did it kind of falter. It was an interesting thing. And (STAMMERS) you know, it just (STAMMERS) seemed to keep gathering, gathering force and power. And then, you know, I (STAMMERS) I originally started out by asking for two weeks, or a week's rehearsal.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Something like this, 'cause I thought we'd (STAMMERS) it'd probably be beneficial to have it as rough as possible, and not really try to get too kind of, uh, precious about it. But then the more I thought about it, (STAMMERS) the people were coming in from Am
 
ERICa, and, uh, I thought, God, you know, we, we ought to really be careful maybe. And then it was a month, and, and during that month, for me, I personally, um, experienced the saying goodbye.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) Um, the whole process happened in a really, really positive, natural way for me, and it was by being with other people that loved him, um, uh, really, and, and, and all of us kind of helping one another to bring him into the (STAMMERS) into the, into the day. You know, so that he was there when we were rehearsing. You know, (STAMMERS) you know. I think he was there, and he wasn't there. And I mean, we all talked about, you know, the kind of guy he was, and whether (STAMMERS) you know, and he was very (CLEARS THROAT)
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) George, you know, was a, was a very, um, (STAMMERS) he was, it was a shifting sand, you know. You never really knew whether he was gonna be in approval of something, or disapproval. I mean, and very unpredictable, and very contrary, and very human. And, uh, and very big. You know. So that, um, we were all in his, in his shadow during (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I mean, we all felt it. You know, and it was either shadow, light, or whatever you want to call it. But, but the thing was, by the time we got to the show, it was almost as if we'd all, we'd all died.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) We'd all, uh, you know. I mean, he was there with us, and we'd, and we'd done it for him, and it was, and I think, (STAMMERS) I mean, God bless him. I don't know anybody else that has had that kind, I can't think of anybody else that's had that kind of tribute, whether it was a record company, or a budget, or an album, or something in the offer. (STAMMERS) You know, the, the, (STAMMERS) there wasn't, there wasn't any kind of end result, other than the, we say thank you and goodbye. You know, just to a friend.
 
FUGEE And once again, why it was so spectacular had to do with, it was from the heart ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON (OVERLAPPING) Yeah ...
 
FUGEE ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you know? And, and for all those reasons. I mean, I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you again. You know.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Not at all. I mean (STAMMERS) and if it hadn't been me that, someone else would have done it. I actually believe now that it was gonna happen (STAMMERS) You know, that it was gonna happen. Whether I (STAMMERS) picked up the ball, or someone else had picked up the ball, it was unstoppable. And, um, and I think it was great, you know, and I, God bless him, and, and thank him for the fact that he made it possible for us to do that for him. And, 'cause then, you know, it breathed life back into a lot of relationships.
 
ERIC CLAPTON (CONTINUED) You know, (STAMMERS) they kind of were getting a little bit neglected, you know.
 
FUGEE Right.
 
ERIC CLAPTON And he was very strong on that kind of stuff.
 
FUGEE Yeah.
 
ERIC CLAPTON So.
 
FUGEE Well.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Yep.
 
FUGEE That's fantastic. And
 
ERIC, I thank you for your time, and thank you for spending it all ...
 
ERIC CLAPTON Pleasure (WORD?) It's been great talking to you, Dam. Thank you.
 
FUGEE Thank you. (TECHNICAL)
 
FUGEE Well, it's amazing. You know, I've heard about, uh, on Wednesday this, of this week, uh, will you be in London at 4:00 on Friday to do this interview?
 
ERIC CLAPTON That's how I'll go (WORD?) (STAMMERS) I mean, we only talked about it a couple of weeks ago, so (STAMMERS) You know Ronnie. Ronnie ...
 
FUGEE (OVERLAPPING) Oh, yeah. Sure. Ronnie's a friend.
 
ERIC CLAPTON Well she was the one, I think, saying (STAMMERS) you really ought to do this, you know. And, uh, I don't know. I mean, it's so tough when you get (STAMMERS) you know. I mean, I, I skirt around the idea of being in this business. And, you know, the easiest thing is, is ge